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	<title>Comments for The Thang Blog</title>
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	<link>http://fridaythang.com/blog</link>
	<description>One 20-something trans woman&#039;s free associations on gender, politics, geekery, and more</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 21 May 2012 20:05:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Interview with Katherine Scott Nelson, author of Have You Seen Me by Have You Seen Me Virtual Tour 2012!!! – Katherine Scott Nelson</title>
		<link>http://fridaythang.com/blog/2012/05/21/interview-with-katherine-scott-nelson-author-of-have-you-seen-me/comment-page-1/#comment-75642</link>
		<dc:creator>Have You Seen Me Virtual Tour 2012!!! – Katherine Scott Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2012 20:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=3495#comment-75642</guid>
		<description>[...] This is a bad ass interview, uh, if I do say so myself. Click here to read the whole thing. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This is a bad ass interview, uh, if I do say so myself. Click here to read the whole thing. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Pro-choice Survey via the Abortioneers by Shona</title>
		<link>http://fridaythang.com/blog/2010/04/25/pro-choice-survey-via-the-abortioneers/comment-page-1/#comment-75319</link>
		<dc:creator>Shona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 11:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=1771#comment-75319</guid>
		<description>Wow; my sentiments exactly. I never got the &quot;abortion as a form of birth control&quot; sentiment however. I had two abortions and they are prohibitively expensive. Most women who opt for birth control go along with other methods...since it is a much cheaper approach. If anything, there needs to be more programs and opportunities to give women access to birth control and affordable health care in general.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow; my sentiments exactly. I never got the &#8220;abortion as a form of birth control&#8221; sentiment however. I had two abortions and they are prohibitively expensive. Most women who opt for birth control go along with other methods&#8230;since it is a much cheaper approach. If anything, there needs to be more programs and opportunities to give women access to birth control and affordable health care in general.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Please raise my taxes by Marta</title>
		<link>http://fridaythang.com/blog/2012/04/29/please-raise-my-taxes/comment-page-1/#comment-72120</link>
		<dc:creator>Marta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 03:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=3486#comment-72120</guid>
		<description>I really hope your letter can make a difference. At the very least you know that you tried and that you spoke your mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really hope your letter can make a difference. At the very least you know that you tried and that you spoke your mind.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Thoughts on Storms Beneath Her Skin advertising by Marta</title>
		<link>http://fridaythang.com/blog/2012/04/21/thoughts-on-storms-beneath-her-skin-advertising/comment-page-1/#comment-71841</link>
		<dc:creator>Marta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2012 04:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=3478#comment-71841</guid>
		<description>I like it. I don&#039;t think the implication is that its ALL that it will be about. you could expand to have more than one thing unchecked and have the other be another aspect of the show.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like it. I don&#8217;t think the implication is that its ALL that it will be about. you could expand to have more than one thing unchecked and have the other be another aspect of the show.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Military drafting, beauty contests, surgery, and so on by Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://fridaythang.com/blog/2012/04/14/military-drafting-beauty-contests-surgery-and-so-on/comment-page-1/#comment-70788</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=3468#comment-70788</guid>
		<description>I like it! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like it! <img src='http://fridaythang.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Consenting Adults &#8211; Arkansas Court Allowing Student/Teacher Relationships by Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://fridaythang.com/blog/2012/04/11/consenting-adults-arkansas-court-allowing-studentteacher-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-70777</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2012 19:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=3464#comment-70777</guid>
		<description>Thanks so much for your thoughts, and sorry it has taken me a few days to reply. 

&lt;a href=&quot;I think the issue in situations like this is not “can the student consent?” but “can the teacher tell consent from compliance?” and “can the teacher responsibly trust hir ability to accurately identify consent?”&quot; [and] ...presumably there’s a point at which the law can step in and say, “In this situation you’re taking too high of a risk of being wrong, and doing the other person a disservice by taking their lack of refusal at face value.” rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;

I think that&#039;s really well put, and speaks to a higher idea of just law in general: The government&#039;s role is to step in and say &quot;this is unreasonable to expect a person to honestly and safely agree to.&quot; Indentured servitude and slavery spring to mind as examples, but even things like regulating interest rates on loans or providing regulations for food and water safety; the government saying that - even were someone &lt;i&gt;willing&lt;/i&gt; to make such a deal - it is in society&#039;s interest to assume there is something less than reasonable consent.

Interestingly enough, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://opinions.aoc.arkansas.gov/WebLink8/ElectronicFile.aspx?docid=274722&amp;&amp;dbid=0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;court&#039;s decision (warning: PDF)&lt;/a&gt; talks about consent: &quot;The record reveals that A.D. was an adult when she engaged in a sexual relationship with Paschal, and the State does not dispute Paschal’s contention that the sexual relationship was consensual&quot; but that &quot;Talbert has no liberty interest to engage in sexual activity by using his position of trust and authority.” Shocking to find a ruling that seems pretty well thought out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much for your thoughts, and sorry it has taken me a few days to reply. </p>
<p><a href="I think the issue in situations like this is not “can the student consent?” but “can the teacher tell consent from compliance?” and “can the teacher responsibly trust hir ability to accurately identify consent?”" [and] ...presumably there’s a point at which the law can step in and say, “In this situation you’re taking too high of a risk of being wrong, and doing the other person a disservice by taking their lack of refusal at face value.” rel="nofollow"></p>
<p>I think that&#8217;s really well put, and speaks to a higher idea of just law in general: The government&#8217;s role is to step in and say &#8220;this is unreasonable to expect a person to honestly and safely agree to.&#8221; Indentured servitude and slavery spring to mind as examples, but even things like regulating interest rates on loans or providing regulations for food and water safety; the government saying that &#8211; even were someone <i>willing</i> to make such a deal &#8211; it is in society&#8217;s interest to assume there is something less than reasonable consent.</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, the </a><a href="http://opinions.aoc.arkansas.gov/WebLink8/ElectronicFile.aspx?docid=274722&#038;&#038;dbid=0" rel="nofollow">court&#8217;s decision (warning: PDF)</a> talks about consent: &#8220;The record reveals that A.D. was an adult when she engaged in a sexual relationship with Paschal, and the State does not dispute Paschal’s contention that the sexual relationship was consensual&#8221; but that &#8220;Talbert has no liberty interest to engage in sexual activity by using his position of trust and authority.” Shocking to find a ruling that seems pretty well thought out.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Military drafting, beauty contests, surgery, and so on by violet</title>
		<link>http://fridaythang.com/blog/2012/04/14/military-drafting-beauty-contests-surgery-and-so-on/comment-page-1/#comment-70757</link>
		<dc:creator>violet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2012 17:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=3468#comment-70757</guid>
		<description>... that &quot;???&quot; was supposed to be &quot;aleph-mem-tav&quot; &lt;i&gt;emet&lt;/i&gt;, truth, the word that was written on the golem&#039;s forehead.  I swear it looked right in the text box, but it didn&#039;t post right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; that &#8220;???&#8221; was supposed to be &#8220;aleph-mem-tav&#8221; <i>emet</i>, truth, the word that was written on the golem&#8217;s forehead.  I swear it looked right in the text box, but it didn&#8217;t post right.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Military drafting, beauty contests, surgery, and so on by violet</title>
		<link>http://fridaythang.com/blog/2012/04/14/military-drafting-beauty-contests-surgery-and-so-on/comment-page-1/#comment-70754</link>
		<dc:creator>violet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2012 17:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=3468#comment-70754</guid>
		<description>Your mention of the golem makes me think of the concept of an &quot;???&quot; tattoo right above surgically rearranged genitals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your mention of the golem makes me think of the concept of an &#8220;???&#8221; tattoo right above surgically rearranged genitals.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Consenting Adults &#8211; Arkansas Court Allowing Student/Teacher Relationships by Kyra</title>
		<link>http://fridaythang.com/blog/2012/04/11/consenting-adults-arkansas-court-allowing-studentteacher-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-70163</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2012 21:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=3464#comment-70163</guid>
		<description>I think the issue in situations like this is not &quot;can the student consent?&quot; but &quot;can the teacher tell consent from compliance?&quot; and &quot;can the teacher responsibly trust hir ability to accurately identify consent?&quot;

Everyone who accepts someone else&#039;s consent to sex is gambling that they judged that consent accurately, with the other person&#039;s well-being as the stakes. The odds of their being right vary with every situation, with every collection of verbal and nonverbal signals from the other person, with every set of social/observational skills (and willingness to use them) of the person doing the analyzing. And presumably there&#039;s a point at which the law can step in and say, &quot;In this situation you&#039;re taking too high of a risk of being wrong, and doing the other person a disservice by taking their lack of refusal at face value.&quot;

There are people who can and do and would freely consent to sex with a person in authority over them if that person&#039;s behavior toward them is non-offputting. There are people who can and do freely consent to behavior other people would find distressing or traumatic, including illusions of abuse of power. I don&#039;t think what people &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; or &lt;i&gt;cannot&lt;/i&gt; consent to is the issue here, simply because it&#039;s so subjective and because it&#039;s so inherently &lt;i&gt;their individual right&lt;/i&gt; to give consent or withhold it as they choose.

I think the issue here is the higher-authority person&#039;s responsibility to tread very, very carefully to avoid misusing that power. Authority over someone and the threat of its misuse tend to strongly muddle communication in both directions. An invitation can be read as a demand, coming from higher in the chain of command; compliance with that can easily be misread as consent, even enthusiastic consent. The appearance of consent can be demanded, or hesitance/dislike/distress/lack of enthusiasm can be deliberately misread. There is often no way to be certain that there&#039;s not a command or a threat hidden in a request, and no way to be certain that even the most enthusiastic expressions of content aren&#039;t just a performance by a subordinate who feels the need to tell the other person what zie wants to hear.

Perhaps there are ways to establish that consent is real, at least beyond the same reasonable doubt that is prevalent in any sexual interaction (although, to be fair, the law is not exactly good at this); it would be good for the legal code to specify how this can be accomplished. Certainly, the standards for it should be well-publicized and written to avoid any leeway on the teacher&#039;s end for intentional misunderstandings. A model of enthusiastic, explicit, and affirmative consent standards and a &quot;if you&#039;re not sure, then don&#039;t&quot; warning would be absolute musts. (I&#039;d love to see EE&amp;A consent standards be adopted across the board of legal sexual activity, personally, but I doubt that&#039;ll happen anytime soon; here, though, they&#039;re all the more important.)

But I think it important that as much discussion of this issue as possible be focused on questioning the higher authority&#039;s ability to identify consent, rather on the lesser one&#039;s ability to give it. To do otherwise, to competent adults, is inherently a dismissal of agency (and an agency that is already not always accepted).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the issue in situations like this is not &#8220;can the student consent?&#8221; but &#8220;can the teacher tell consent from compliance?&#8221; and &#8220;can the teacher responsibly trust hir ability to accurately identify consent?&#8221;</p>
<p>Everyone who accepts someone else&#8217;s consent to sex is gambling that they judged that consent accurately, with the other person&#8217;s well-being as the stakes. The odds of their being right vary with every situation, with every collection of verbal and nonverbal signals from the other person, with every set of social/observational skills (and willingness to use them) of the person doing the analyzing. And presumably there&#8217;s a point at which the law can step in and say, &#8220;In this situation you&#8217;re taking too high of a risk of being wrong, and doing the other person a disservice by taking their lack of refusal at face value.&#8221;</p>
<p>There are people who can and do and would freely consent to sex with a person in authority over them if that person&#8217;s behavior toward them is non-offputting. There are people who can and do freely consent to behavior other people would find distressing or traumatic, including illusions of abuse of power. I don&#8217;t think what people <i>can</i> or <i>cannot</i> consent to is the issue here, simply because it&#8217;s so subjective and because it&#8217;s so inherently <i>their individual right</i> to give consent or withhold it as they choose.</p>
<p>I think the issue here is the higher-authority person&#8217;s responsibility to tread very, very carefully to avoid misusing that power. Authority over someone and the threat of its misuse tend to strongly muddle communication in both directions. An invitation can be read as a demand, coming from higher in the chain of command; compliance with that can easily be misread as consent, even enthusiastic consent. The appearance of consent can be demanded, or hesitance/dislike/distress/lack of enthusiasm can be deliberately misread. There is often no way to be certain that there&#8217;s not a command or a threat hidden in a request, and no way to be certain that even the most enthusiastic expressions of content aren&#8217;t just a performance by a subordinate who feels the need to tell the other person what zie wants to hear.</p>
<p>Perhaps there are ways to establish that consent is real, at least beyond the same reasonable doubt that is prevalent in any sexual interaction (although, to be fair, the law is not exactly good at this); it would be good for the legal code to specify how this can be accomplished. Certainly, the standards for it should be well-publicized and written to avoid any leeway on the teacher&#8217;s end for intentional misunderstandings. A model of enthusiastic, explicit, and affirmative consent standards and a &#8220;if you&#8217;re not sure, then don&#8217;t&#8221; warning would be absolute musts. (I&#8217;d love to see EE&amp;A consent standards be adopted across the board of legal sexual activity, personally, but I doubt that&#8217;ll happen anytime soon; here, though, they&#8217;re all the more important.)</p>
<p>But I think it important that as much discussion of this issue as possible be focused on questioning the higher authority&#8217;s ability to identify consent, rather on the lesser one&#8217;s ability to give it. To do otherwise, to competent adults, is inherently a dismissal of agency (and an agency that is already not always accepted).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Military drafting, beauty contests, surgery, and so on by Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://fridaythang.com/blog/2012/04/14/military-drafting-beauty-contests-surgery-and-so-on/comment-page-1/#comment-70154</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=3468#comment-70154</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your thoughts. I over intellectualize everything, so it&#039;s no surprise I&#039;m doing it to my body, too. But I totally understand what you&#039;re saying, about the decision coming from both logic and emotion. This was kind of a free association writing exercise, and I wouldn&#039;t put too much stock in it. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your thoughts. I over intellectualize everything, so it&#8217;s no surprise I&#8217;m doing it to my body, too. But I totally understand what you&#8217;re saying, about the decision coming from both logic and emotion. This was kind of a free association writing exercise, and I wouldn&#8217;t put too much stock in it. <img src='http://fridaythang.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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