Comments on: Speaking of gender roles… http://fridaythang.com/blog/2009/11/09/speaking-of-gender-roles/ One 20-somthing trans woman's free associations on gender, politics, geekery, and more Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:09:58 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Rebecca http://fridaythang.com/blog/2009/11/09/speaking-of-gender-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-3848 Rebecca Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:53:54 +0000 http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=1263#comment-3848 <blockquote>I’ve been noticing the ways that gendered expectations create their own necessity, even in your own instincts.</blockquote> That makes a lot of sense. Any behavior can become self-perpetuating or self-reinforcing. Behaviors that are based around helplessness or ignorance to some extent (the stranded maiden) definitely fall into that category.

I’ve been noticing the ways that gendered expectations create their own necessity, even in your own instincts.

That makes a lot of sense. Any behavior can become self-perpetuating or self-reinforcing. Behaviors that are based around helplessness or ignorance to some extent (the stranded maiden) definitely fall into that category.

]]> By: piny http://fridaythang.com/blog/2009/11/09/speaking-of-gender-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-3846 piny Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:03:50 +0000 http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=1263#comment-3846 I've been noticing the ways that gendered expectations create their own necessity, even in your own instincts. There are all these strategies I've been trained to use and therefore feel comfortable using, and all these lacunae that create a role for my social complement. I'd feel grateful in that situation, because I don't know how to change a tire. But I'd feel embarrassed, because I'd be stranded on the side of the road, waiting for help from someone who <em>knows better</em>. I doubt that my mechanophobia is unrelated to factors besides my assigned gender, but growing up a girl definitely played a part in, say, my dad's tendency to include me in the umpteen home-improvement projects he's taken on. I’ve been noticing the ways that gendered expectations create their own necessity, even in your own instincts. There are all these strategies I’ve been trained to use and therefore feel comfortable using, and all these lacunae that create a role for my social complement. I’d feel grateful in that situation, because I don’t know how to change a tire. But I’d feel embarrassed, because I’d be stranded on the side of the road, waiting for help from someone who knows better.

I doubt that my mechanophobia is unrelated to factors besides my assigned gender, but growing up a girl definitely played a part in, say, my dad’s tendency to include me in the umpteen home-improvement projects he’s taken on.

]]> By: Rebecca http://fridaythang.com/blog/2009/11/09/speaking-of-gender-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-3832 Rebecca Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:41:27 +0000 http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=1263#comment-3832 Sorry I snapped at you, I just didn't want the conversation to drift in that direction. I would agree that gender and gendered behavior have both social/societal aspects and biological aspects. I think trans people give lie to the idea that gender is <i>solely</i> a result of nurturing, but anyone who thinks gender is solely nature should go on hormones for a year and see how their (gendered) behavior and attitudes change... Sorry I snapped at you, I just didn’t want the conversation to drift in that direction.

I would agree that gender and gendered behavior have both social/societal aspects and biological aspects. I think trans people give lie to the idea that gender is solely a result of nurturing, but anyone who thinks gender is solely nature should go on hormones for a year and see how their (gendered) behavior and attitudes change…

]]> By: John http://fridaythang.com/blog/2009/11/09/speaking-of-gender-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-3818 John Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:27:54 +0000 http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=1263#comment-3818 Wow What I said was a simple a throw away comment. I do agree whole hearty with what you said Little Johnny from a young age is taught that he is not supposed to cry or he is a sissy. He is not supposed to show emotion or he is known as a baby. Little Sussie on the other hand is taught that if she speaks up she is a known it all. If she likes to play outside she's a tomboy as a little girl. When she gets older tomboy becomes butch. I think society along with nature and nurture cause the gender divide. What do you think Wow

What I said was a simple a throw away comment.
I do agree whole hearty with what you said

Little Johnny from a young age is taught that he is not supposed to cry or he is a sissy. He is not supposed to show emotion or he is known as a baby.

Little Sussie on the other hand is taught that if she speaks up she is a known it all. If she likes to play outside she’s a tomboy as a little girl. When she gets older tomboy becomes butch.

I think society along with nature and nurture cause the gender divide.

What do you think

]]> By: Rebecca http://fridaythang.com/blog/2009/11/09/speaking-of-gender-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-3813 Rebecca Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:56:16 +0000 http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=1263#comment-3813 I can see where you're coming from, but I'd rather blame it on societal expectations of gender roles and behavior. I don't accept the idea that men are inherently condescending toward women. I'm open to the idea that some genetic/biological/hormonal component makes posturing more <i>likely</i> in men, but I refuse to accept genetic or biological determinism for social behavior. The whole point of civilization is that we're able to overcome pre-programmed "natural" responses. To put it more briefly, I'm not really interested in engaging in male-bashing. I can see where you’re coming from, but I’d rather blame it on societal expectations of gender roles and behavior. I don’t accept the idea that men are inherently condescending toward women.

I’m open to the idea that some genetic/biological/hormonal component makes posturing more likely in men, but I refuse to accept genetic or biological determinism for social behavior. The whole point of civilization is that we’re able to overcome pre-programmed “natural” responses.

To put it more briefly, I’m not really interested in engaging in male-bashing.

]]> By: John http://fridaythang.com/blog/2009/11/09/speaking-of-gender-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-3811 John Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:37:17 +0000 http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=1263#comment-3811 Blame the male ego and Testostrone Blame the male ego and Testostrone

]]> By: Rebecca http://fridaythang.com/blog/2009/11/09/speaking-of-gender-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-3807 Rebecca Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:23:12 +0000 http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=1263#comment-3807 I think age-ism may have played a role in my situation, too. It makes me think of a recent interaction at work, where I'm the general manager. A repair man was directing all his interactions to an older woman, who is definitely not my subordinate but also wasn't in charge of coordinating the repairs being discussed. She apologized for it after he left, since she noticed it too, but it was a short enough interaction that neither of us bothered mentioning it to the repair man. Anywho, I'm sorry to hear your would-be savior was less competent than mine... ;) I think age-ism may have played a role in my situation, too. It makes me think of a recent interaction at work, where I’m the general manager. A repair man was directing all his interactions to an older woman, who is definitely not my subordinate but also wasn’t in charge of coordinating the repairs being discussed. She apologized for it after he left, since she noticed it too, but it was a short enough interaction that neither of us bothered mentioning it to the repair man.

Anywho, I’m sorry to hear your would-be savior was less competent than mine… ;)

]]> By: Ariel http://fridaythang.com/blog/2009/11/09/speaking-of-gender-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-3800 Ariel Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:26:35 +0000 http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=1263#comment-3800 A couple months ago (back when I was still in the US)my grandma called me to help her jump her car in a grocery store parking lot. As I was pulling the cables out of my truck some middle aged guy came over (presumably seeing two helpless womenfolks?) and interceded, doing it wrong. He didn't even ask which car needed the jump, and assumed it was mine (thus some of the doing it wrong.) I was dumbstruck for a second, until I realized that even though I was the youngest by 25+ years and this guy obviously thought his maleness made him an expert on the situation, these were my and my grandmothers cars and I was the one who knew what was going on and I should have authority over the situation. I wish I told him to shove off, but all I did was ignore him, get the car started, and thanked him for his [useless useless] help. =/ A couple months ago (back when I was still in the US)my grandma called me to help her jump her car in a grocery store parking lot. As I was pulling the cables out of my truck some middle aged guy came over (presumably seeing two helpless womenfolks?) and interceded, doing it wrong. He didn’t even ask which car needed the jump, and assumed it was mine (thus some of the doing it wrong.) I was dumbstruck for a second, until I realized that even though I was the youngest by 25+ years and this guy obviously thought his maleness made him an expert on the situation, these were my and my grandmothers cars and I was the one who knew what was going on and I should have authority over the situation.

I wish I told him to shove off, but all I did was ignore him, get the car started, and thanked him for his [useless useless] help. =/

]]> By: Rebecca http://fridaythang.com/blog/2009/11/09/speaking-of-gender-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-3790 Rebecca Tue, 10 Nov 2009 03:07:06 +0000 http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=1263#comment-3790 Thanks for your thoughts, Mattie. It reminds me of when someone on the street 'complimented' me on my legs: on the one hand, ew! on the other, it did make me feel pretty... Oh well! Thanks for your thoughts, Mattie. It reminds me of when someone on the street ‘complimented’ me on my legs: on the one hand, ew! on the other, it did make me feel pretty…

Oh well!

]]> By: Mattie http://fridaythang.com/blog/2009/11/09/speaking-of-gender-roles/comment-page-1/#comment-3789 Mattie Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:55:36 +0000 http://fridaythang.com/blog/?p=1263#comment-3789 Rebecca, I think, from experience, a bit of both :) I have had interactions that left me both annoyed at the sexism inherent in them and also having been bouyed by the affirmation of being read female. Utterly confusing and mixed feelings. I decided that such things are what they are. I feel it's perfectly OK to find such a thing both bad and good at the same time... and to also overthink them sometimes as a result. Rebecca, I think, from experience, a bit of both :) I have had interactions that left me both annoyed at the sexism inherent in them and also having been bouyed by the affirmation of being read female. Utterly confusing and mixed feelings. I decided that such things are what they are. I feel it’s perfectly OK to find such a thing both bad and good at the same time… and to also overthink them sometimes as a result.

]]>