On the Edge of Trolling, pt 5
(A note: These have sort of moved from “this might be trolling” to “this is obviously trolling,” but I like the title too much to change it. So “On the Edge of Trolling” it remains.)
Yet another comment to Misogyny and the Male Gaze, which is apparently where baby trolls go to learn how to fly:
No amount of blogging, self denial, surgery, or hormone pills is ever gong to change this fact:
Born a man, always a man. Born a woman, always a woman.
This is straight, clear cut science. It cannot be argued against. It’s as solid as 1+1=2.
Mmm. Smell that? Some lovely proof by assertion, with a hint of You’re arguing with opinions not fact, vintage 2009.
I think the only appropriate course of action is to respond in kind:
No amount of trolling, assertion, rejection, or dismissal is ever going to change this fact:
Gender is more complicated than what’s between your legs, or what you were assigned at birth.
This is straight, clear cut science. It cannot be argued against. It’s as solid as 1+1=2.
See? I can make assertions without backing them up, too! I could back them up, referencing some of the various different ways that gender is more complicated than “Born a man, always a man. Born a woman, always a woman.” (And that’s without even getting into trans issues!) But that would be silly.
Likewise, I could respond by stating that my own lived experience gives the lie to your assertions. That your argument boils down to how no true Scotsman would ever transition in the first place, and therefor I must not “really” be a woman. That stating “It’s as solid as 1+1=2″ does not magically make it so.
But since all of those arguments are hypothetical, and nothing I’d ever actually put forth as a response, I guess you win: My transition has been for naught, and I shall now attempt to rebuild the shambles of my gender-confused life.
Themocracy
I’m a firm believe that gender is much more fluid than most people like to think. While saying ‘man’ or ‘woman’ is mostly judged based on anatomy, in my opinion gender is more a state of mind. If you have the anatomy of a man, but think and feel and act like a woman…well, woman wins. It irks me sometimes to see close minded opinions. Makes me want to slap them, but that’s not very nice, is it?
Yeah, I agree. Although even things like “think and feel and act like a woman” (or like a man) can get problematic. For me, it boils down to self-identification: If I identify as a woman (or a man, or neither, or one on some days and one on others), and that self-identification is honest and without intent to harm others, then that trumps social/cultural expectations and physical anatomy.
I also feel like there’s an issue of control and power in why people get all up in arms about gender, as saying “Born a man, always a man. Born a woman, always a woman.” is a way to move toward “Men are better at XYZ than women” or even “Men should naturally be in charge, above women.” Because if gender is something innate and immutable, it’s less of a leap to say that there are specific gendered traits that are similarly innate and immutable.
(And wanting to slap ‘em may not be nice, but it would probably feel damn good. ::grin:: )
That’s true. You start lumping people into neat little boxes, and the next thing you know, they’re lumping EVERYTHING into boxes. “Strong? Why, that’s a man trait. Into the box! Sensitive? Female! ”
Perhaps gender is a bit outdated for the society we live in?
I’d definitely say gender performance and roles have a lot to answer for and the sooner stereotypes of them vanish the better! Gender as identity, I don’t think that’s something that can be called outdated. Otherwise, you know, trans people and others wouldn’t be needing to make an issue of it really. That’s not behavioural it’s identity and self. It’s how you express a gender identity and the expectations people have about this that is up for debate for me
I’m particularly amused by “No amount of blogging…” Who knew blogging was considered such an assertive thing to do?
Also, just for fun, lets have some hard science shall we? Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus. Interesting! This is straight, clear cut science, you can tell by all the science in it and because it was written by scientists, neuroscientists in fact! It’s as solid as 1+1=2 even!
That’s really interesting – I hadn’t seen that study before. (Not that I feel particularly enlightened about what a limbic nucleus is or does.)
But I can imagine the response would be a claim “you can’t draw conclusions from such a small sample size!” (in spite of pretty compelling probability analysis) and a repetition of the no true Scotsman logical fallacy. (i.e. “No true woman needs to transition, therefore you aren’t one.)
I also heard a funny (unrelated) comment on an NPR interview yesterday about how 1+1=2 isn’t as solid as we think when looking at coordinate systems on spheres. Obviously that’s a dodge to the actual issue, but it’d be a fun derailing technique:
“It’s as solid as 1+1=2!”
“In what type of coordinate system?”
“What?”
Isn’t it? I understand it is part of a developing body of evidence that tend to the same conclusions, building on previous studies with smaller samples. It’s slow work as it can only be carried out post mortum, relying on donors. Well that and it’s not a very fashionable thing to study I think.
If anyone does know what a limbic nucleus is or does in an answer on the back of a postcard style, I’d love to know! Wikipedia failed me
You’re right too, that some people would talk about the sample size being too small, but then I’ve read elsewhere how sample size is not the be all and end all, it’s certainty that matters and that this is a major flaw in how most people understand scientific conclusions. As you say, in this case they go to quite some pains to show why the results are significant. Oh and also have some fairly extensive controls on the results despite the small sample size. Damn scientists, doing science, how inconvenient.
I had the fact that 1+1 is not as absolute as people think in mind too
*geeking*
I just finished my anatomy classes, and we glossed over much of the deeper functions of the brain, but my understanding was that the limbic system is actually different components of the brain acting together. You of course have parts of the brain that are involved in homoestasis of the body (regulating everyday functions: breathing, digestion, etc) and you also have the parts that form memories and emotions.
Not sure if that helped. Like I said, glossed.
So I’m here, I guess, to get some questions out, and maybe figure this out better in my head. I don’t want to cause problems for you, and you seem like you don’t allow problems to arise for you– so here’s my big question today.
Say you do transition successfully. HRT, facial feminization, vaginoplasty from some world class doctor in Thailand. Lazer stuff for the hair, face, legs, etc. Doctors examine you and you present as female.
What then? Have you arrived? Do you continue to feel as though you “don’t fit”, which is presumably why you began this journey in the first place?
That’s my argument. Please name me some very successful transgendered individuals, people who are widely known and recognized as successful leaders and teachers and individuals, because I don’t know any. It seems that all the resources used by individuals to change their physical bodies and processes to “change gender” could be spent better. All that money, all that anguish, all the fighting against the system, and what do you gain? Will you really gain the peace you seek? Or are you stuck in a continuous loop of unfulfillment because instead of dealing with the hand you were dealt, you decided to discard that hand? Instead of learning the true meaning of “happiness” and finding it in what you have, you go off on the wild goose chase, the search for the holy grail, the elusive “peace” that is sure to come when you look completely like a woman. Right?
I’m not saying that your transition isn’t valid, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do it, I’m not saying you’re wrong or that you will never be a real woman.
What I am saying is this: What is your transition going to change? What is it going to resolve for you that was so unresolved that you felt you had to take this path? How is this path going to help YOU? It’s going to greatly benefit trans-surgeons and doctors and everyone you’re going to pay for your procedures, but what about you? Does this path really bring happiness?
That’s all I’d like to know. That’s the only part that really worries me– I’ve read and heard horror stories of how people do get to the other side and feel just as lost as they did before, which leads me to wonder if the transition is just another symptom, not necessarily a solution.
Sorry for the super long comment and I want to apologize if anything I’ve said here offends you– it’s not my intention, and I’d appreciate your consideration.
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[...] recent comment from (amusingly enough) “Your Personal Troll” to On the Edge of Trolling, Pt 5 was written in such a way to make me want to respond, if only to get my own thoughts in [...]
I don’t know anybody who was born either a man or a woman. I don’t think it’s ever even happened. If it has, my condolences to the mother — I imagine that giving birth to an adult would be a lot more difficult than giving birth to an infant (which is, I’ve heard, often stressful enough).
I honestly don’t understand why some people can’t grasp sex vs. gender, either. Many plants have sexes, yet they don’t have genders. Some cultures have three or five genders, but they have exactly the same number of sexes that we do. All you have to do is realize that our society and species is not the entirety of existence, and you can easily find bucket-loads of examples that illustrate the difference.
Welcome, Meg. You raise a good point, that “born a man, always a man” forgets the huge amount of culture and socialization that goes into creating every single adult, even when ignoring how much of it has to do specifically with gender. No one springs, fully formed, from their parents’ heads (or loins…)
I love the 1+1=2, especially in light of this t-shirt http://bit.ly/G8uJx that reads, essentially, “1+1=3 for very large values of one.” Lest we forget that nature does not “carve at the joints” (Pace Plato), but instead involves a continuum.
Thanks for the comment! Well-said, and something far too many people have trouble remembering…
I’m not sure if you’re reading this far back anymore.
But to quote an animated George Harrison; “It’s all in the mind you know.”
“I think therefore I am.”
It all comes down to who we are on the inside, and that’s that (cop out on the end since I could find a way to end that statement).
Thanks for the comment, Kei. Yup, I still get comment notifications on older posts.
I couldn’t agree more – we all know what’s in our head, and in our heart, better than anyone else. So there.